On commenting on the post, “The Selling of Jesus” by thefreeslave, my response got so long winded, as I am known to do, that it became a post in itself.
Lubangakene, you made some valid points in your post and asked some stimulating questions. These questions, which have been asked throughout the ages, I have struggled with myself. I don’t claim to have any of the answers, however I’ll humbly provide my perspective for whatever it’s worth.
I just finished reading “The Forging of the Races: Race and Scripture in the Protestant Atlantic World, 1600-2000” by Colin Kidd. I am now reading “God’s War: A New History of the Crusades” by Christopher Tyerman. Both books discuss historical aspects of westernized Christianity, the Bible, as well as the “Selling of Jesus”, and how it was all politicized by Europeans for imperial expansion at the expense of “peoples of color”. I have also read “Yurugu” by Marimba Ani. She provides certain truthful perspectives on various European ideologies, including as you state, Christianity. I have also read “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins, who contends that a belief in God or any supernatural being for that matter is irrational and details some of the negative effects of religion throughout history. I found all of these books very informative as well as enlightening. I found them even more influential in strengthening my faith and belief that all religious ideology, in this case European Christian ideology, and having a personal relationship with God, are indeed two different things.
However, I don’t base my intellectual or spiritual beliefs solely on European or “westernized” intellectualism. The world is a very diverse place and it’s western arrogance, among both whites and blacks, why they tend to only perceive aspects of life through this prism of western intellectualism. And what do prisms do? They distort light. Intellectual prisms in the same way distorts truth. That is the weakness in Furqan’s statement, as interesting and enlightening as it may appear. The westernized form of Christianity and it’s history that he riles against, is only one perspective among many. It’s not the be all and end all to judge religion or Christianity by. Regardless, if this is indeed what they are selling, then we need to ask ourselves: are we just buying what they are offering or rejecting it thinking that’s all there is? Or are we being conscientious consumers and putting in the work to research what other perspectives are out there, so that we make well informed choices? This takes time and effort and how many of us are willing to make that commitment, sacrifice or responsibility to educate ourselves?
That is why it is so important to not only read, but to read a wide variety of perspectives on any issue. When it comes to religious ideology, I have read the Bible and Quran, as well as many other books which discussed the historical, political, economic and social aspects of a variety of religions. Some of which I mentioned above, but I have also read materials such as “A Black Theology of Liberation” by James Cone and “A Life of Jesus” by Shusaku Endo, who provides a Japanese perspective on Christianity. I am now searching for a book on Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity. A long time ago I came to realize that westernized perspectives of Christianity, the Bible and Jesus aren’t the only or even the dominant perspective out in the wider world. Those who think this is the case are limited by their frame of reference, which is based on seeing the world through the prism of western intellectualism.
Not only is it important to read a variety of ideas, it is even more important travel to different places and converse with local people… and not as a tourist on a resort which caters to western sensibilities. One of the life changing trips I went on was my pilgrimage to West Africa. In the places I went and the people I spoke with, there was one thing that was very evident: Africans are spiritual people. I met Muslims, Christians and those who practiced traditional religions. I came away with two profound realizations. One, the westernized ideology and practice of Christianity wasn’t dominant in these cultures. In fact, a lot of traditional beliefs and practices were intertwined in their Christian (as well as Muslim) beliefs and practices. Two, those of African descent who have lost their spirituality or have discarded it in the name of intellectual supremacy (i.e., western based intellectualism), are incomplete… they are lacking a vital aspect of their essence.
“No, the brain is turned off a bit too much with this religion stuff for my liking.”
Lubankagene, I find it ironic that you make this statement while you use as your wordpress gravtar the image of Malcolm X , a religious zealot who practiced a religion that colonized and enslaved Africans well before the Europeans or Christianity. Although we like to glorify the political and social commentary of Malcolm, we tend to conveniently forget (or dismiss), that first and foremost, Malcolm’s message was a religious one. When he was a spokesman for the Nation of Islam, his message was that the way to salvation and freedom for African-Americans was in following the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. When he left the Nation and returned from his pilgrimage to Mecca, he preached that the way to salvation for all was in submitting oneself to Allah and accepting that Mohammed was his prophet. Would you therefore say that all this “religious stuff” Malcolm believed in turned his brain off, or would you argue that it enhanced his political awareness and intellect? What about Martin Luther King? What you also argue that Anna Renee’s, brotherpeacemaker’s, as well as my brain, are turned off because of the “religious stuff” we believe? If the answers are “no”, then I would argue that it’s a choice. Some people choose to use their religious beliefs as an excuse to turn off their brains (intellect), while others use their intellectual beliefs as as excuse to reject their spiritual nature.
Many years ago a friend gave me an audio cassette of a lecture by Dr. Edwin Nichols, a Black clinical psychologist, called “White Supremacy-A Paradigm”. It was based on a lecture he gave entitled: “Philosophical Aspects of Cultural Difference”. One of the points Dr. Nichols made was that European (western) intellectualism divided the mind, heart and soul into separate entities. He mused that was why white people would say things like: “tell me what you think, not what you feel”. For them, they process the world primarily through their intellect, therefore emotions and faith are considered inferior entities and any beliefs or cultures which operated within these realms were also inferior. Rationality and logic is the foundation from which they interact and interdict with each other, as well as with other cultures.
Dr. Nichols states that by contrast, within African culture, as well as most other cultures worldwide, the belief in this type of separation is non-existent. Historically, African cultures were the first to create science, art and religion with no contradictions. Their spirituality and religious beliefs didn’t turn off their brains. In fact it augmented it. Therefore I would argue that those of African descent, who have internalized western intellectual ideology and view the world primarily through it’s prism, also believe in this separation, that the intellect is superior and that if you live by faith, then you have turned off your brains, so to speak.
“No, I struggle reading here the repeated references on this blog to folks needing to “turn to GAWD, turn to Jesus.”
I don’t know if you were following the discussion on the post “Is Satan Speaking and Are you Listening?” by our sister Anna Renee. A commenter, The Precision Afrikan, also struggled with the recent religious content on this blog. I want to highlight a couple parts of my response to him:
This is a space where all views… political, social, secular, as well as religious, are welcomed to be shared, discussed, debated, but most importantly: respected. This is the reason why for example, thefreeslave and I, who have different political and religious beliefs can come and work together here, as well as be good friends. If we had your attitude, this forum would never have been created and we would consider each other enemies.
But you hit the real issue when you state that you became “accustomed to this blog as a primarily secular space to discuss Pan-African political issues from the perspective of reality and the material world, using critical thinking.” I observed the same thing as you and felt the need to expand our topics for discussions and therefore made a conscious effort to include more religious and spiritual perspectives, for we are also a religious and spiritual people, as well as politically and socially conscious. There is no reason why can’t discuss religious and spiritual issues here, even within the framework of what you term: “critical thinking”.
Therefore I say it’s good that you struggle. I struggle most times with the material which is posted here also… some of which I authour! However, read our Mission Statement once again. This forum has always been about sharing, discussing and debating ideas and beliefs. If every time someone comes here, they leave agreeing with everything that was said, then did any of us really learn anything? Our beliefs and perspectives should be challenged in some way, at some time. However, I have also come to realize that there is some risk when you take this position. I read a report recently based on a study which concluded that although the internet theoretically makes it possible to be able to access a variety of informational sources and points of views, most people will frequent sites that reaffirms their beliefs and worldview. Most people are not too open to consider varying beliefs and/or perspectives and are in fact very narrow-minded in their scope of the world.
One of the things I have learnt over the three years that I’ve been involved in blogging, is that it’s easier to claim to be down with exchanging and discussing ideas than it is to actually be committed to doing it! I have had emails from those who consider themselves to be intellectuals and are quick to testify that they are on a journey of enlightenment and self-empowerment, whether political, social and/or religious, who state that they will no longer visit this blog because we allow different points of view to be discussed here! One was upset that I posted articles from members of the black conservative network Project 21.
The question for me becomes, regardless of my personal beliefs, do we refuse to allow others to express their point of view here because we might not agree with their political, social or religious beliefs? Do we take the “us vs. them” position of western intellectualism… that if you don’t believe as I do, then “you’re not for us, you’re against us!” Or do we take a more holistic… and dare I say… “spiritual” approach and acknowledge that as black people, we are not homogeneous in our beliefs and that by listening, discussing and even challenging these beliefs in a respectful manner, we will ultimately become a more empowered and enlightened people. I know… I’m being naive.
“The conflagration that kills first is the one that scorches the gray matter.”
Lubankagene, allow me to build upon your above statement and add a quote from Hamlet:
“There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
Walk good Lubankagene. I wish you heaven… whatever that may be for you.
Those who have found their belief, never believe that some people have done the necessary search, but have no faith. It has nothing to do with rationality or the intellect or the wish to deny a deity, it is just that whatever it takes to believe in that entity doesn’t happen.
I think there are some people who are not wired to be religious. I also don’t think these people are not capable of knowing right from wrong or understanding how to live a moral life.
Personally, I am tired of hearing if you just open yourself to god, etc.
Often times some people who don’t want to believe in Jesus, (but maybe in a ‘higher power’) become distressed by the people who do believe in Jesus. They seem to want to shut the “believers” up. They seem to have zero tolerance for the “believers” talking about their belief. They may have tolerance for believers in any other “religion” but they can’t stand for “Christians” to open their mouths about Christ Jesus.
I think that is unfair.
They tend to attack our intelligence, our ability to think critically, to reason. Yet I doubt that they feel so strongly about any other group expressing their religious beliefs.
Its like a derailing thing (I like that word) they forever speak about the atrocities committed by those who claim to be Christians. Atrocities are being committed in the name of Allah right now, but I don’t think that Allah is evil!!
I don’t despise Muslims, nor think they are incapable of critical thinking. (I think that God and Allah are one, but that’s another post)
The derail comes in blaming God/Jesus for the atrocities, as a way of not dealing with God/Jesus! No matter how often it is said that religion and God/Jesus are not the same thing, the folks go right back to looking at them as the same thing. I believe that we arent that obtuse. We know whats up. We have to deal with God/Jesus. Either you believe in the Living God or you don’t. But don’t call me stupid because I do believe. I believe because I chose to deal with the thing. When I was a pseudo-revolutionary, we’d get into debates with those “stupid Jesus freaks”! But the day came that I had to actually deal with Jesus. And I couldn’t derail any further. I chose to get to know Him, rather than be an atheist. I could no longer sit down and contemplate conception and childbirth and claim that there was no higher power. I accepted that the power was God, revealed as Jesus. I had my mind turned on fully, because I required proofs even when I decided to give Jesus a try.
@Hathor–Faith has to be activated. It’s difficult but one must trust without understanding. Because we cant understand God, but our lack of ability to understand doesn’t mean there is no God. He has revealed to us a measure, but in order to receive it, you have to believe that He exists, which means you have to trust or have faith, or you will never seek Him.
People are capable of knowing right from wrong–God has placed that knowledge within us. That’s why it’s not about “religion”, and that’s why those who do wicked deeds cant claim that they didnt know it was wrong.
@Sis. Anna,
I encourage you to keep speaking up here about your beliefs. Don’t take it as anyone is trying to shut you up. This is what we’re all about in here. We are all very opinionated so you must expect your opinion/beliefs to be questioned or challenged at some point. So don’t take it personally, this is how we roll in here and I am confident that you can hold your own.
I also encourage Lubankagene to continue to point out the inconsistencies, hypocracies and other negative aspects associated with religion, especially Christianity. My opinions and beliefs are not above being questioned and challenged and it does help to prevent me from becoming complacent.
I would also encourage those who visit here to express their beliefs and opinions. We may not always agree but constructive crticism and respectful debate will only lead to more enlightment and understanding among us.
Anna Renee,
You say, “Often times some people who don’t want to believe in Jesus, (but maybe in a ‘higher power’) become distressed by the people who do believe in Jesus. They seem to want to shut the “believers” up. They seem to have zero tolerance for the “believers” talking about their belief. They may have tolerance for believers in any other “religion” but they can’t stand for “Christians” to open their mouths about Christ Jesus.”
Part of the reason some people become distressed when in the presence of a Christian who “believes” in Jesus, is because 9 times out of ten, that Christian moves from simple belief to proselytizing. There is a difference in stating one’s personal ideals, beliefs and telling other people they need to “get on board” or else.
Believers, some of them, don’t tend to recognize this difference. Some of them don’t realize that when you tell someone that your “belief” is better, the only possible, etc, the believer is negating the experiences of billions of other people with other backgrounds and traditions.
Some believers don’t understand that a necessary tenet of Christianity is “believing in that which can’t be seen and that which cannot be proven. Faith.” There is a gap between reality, or what we call reality and God.
You say, “It’s difficult but one must trust without understanding. Because we cant understand God, but our lack of ability to understand doesn’t mean there is no God.”
The reason God/Jesus get blamed for atrocities is because the people who push these symbols through their particular faith have perpetrated monstrous crimes in the name of religion.
The white man who came to the shores of North America practiced a brand of slavery-mediated Christianity that they believed would “civilize” they African savages. The Europeans used this lie to conquer the continent. The European led with the Bible and the African led with his chin. And who got what out of that deal.
So, this issue of God/Jesus being blamed for the wrongs of Christians is due to the imperialistic, uncivil motives and actions taken in God’s/Jesus’ name. They used God/Jesus, to tranquilize the masses, to get them all blind and pious and devout, while they, the devils who inoculated them with Jesus, raped, robbed and stole a continent.
So I don’t call Christians stupid because they believe; but I do say that they are in some serious denial if they can’t step back from their “faith” and see the soil that their religion was nurtured in and how that “faith” has been perverted and used to enrich and enslave.
I hear you brother, and I understand your position on this. It’s so important to not accept anything
one “believes” in without a thorough understanding. I agree that many people refuse to do this! From their belief in Christianity, to their belief in Islam, to their belief in Bernie Madoff, to their belief in Viagra!! I’m just sayin’! 🙂
@Asabagna–Wow! Just Wow, OK?
You have broken this down and given me some ammo! (I probably shouldn’t say it that way, but I feel like it)
“…we need to ask ourselves: are we just buying what they are offering or rejecting it thinking that’s all there is?…”
POWERFUL! Especially the “rejecting” part of it. We hear the Western perspective for and against “Christianity” and neither is complete. The reasons they reject it is based on arrogant “intellectual supremacy”. But what reasons do African people in the west reject it? Is there more than one way to reject it? If we reject it from the same perspective, then we have to reject most of our black people!! They all become brain dead, then we who see ourselves with fully functional brains take on the same arrogance as the oppressor! It’s a type of divide and conquer!!
“In fact, a lot of traditional beliefs and practices were intertwined in their Christian (as well as Muslim) beliefs and practices.”
This is so deep to me. It’s also what those Africans who were stolen did in places like Cuba and Brazil, when they intertwined those “African deities”, such as Yemaja, Olurun & Olodumare, with those Christian saints. It was brilliance with their minds being fully on.
And I can’t disparage “Voodoo” because there is “possession” when as I’m sitting in my Christian church, some of the sisters and even the brothers get “caught in the spirit” and start jumping, dancing, falling out, praising! I can’t do it. I haven’t studied those African “religions” in more than 20 years, when I didn’t have a clue anyway. I’m inspired to now.
I had an interesting conversation at Landofkam’s blog on a post he did
http://landofkam.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/are-you-afro-centrically-spiritually-outcast/#comments
I loved the way he was wrestlling with it–thoughtfully and with his mind turned on–with respect for his family’s Christian perspective as he dealt with it from his Kamitic perspective. He came to a conclusion that the two are not necessarily mutuallly exclusive. Beautiful!
I believe in Jesus, Yeshua or I prefer Emanu-El. Anna Renee, I read the link and I could relate to that brotha deeply. However, I, like he, came to understand that this is not a battle of differences but, of connections. I have come to the realization that the beings we call Jesus, Guatama Buddah (where our word God may derive), Horus, The Pale One and others are cyclical beings that will return to the people to remind us of who we are and how we should live. I think you and I came to such an understanding when you told me your story and we were able to see that Horus said exactly the same things 3000 years before the birth of Emanu-El, Jesus if you will,and you said that Christ was on the Earth even during those times (I paraphrase here, forgive me), and I fully agree with you on that, simply because I can see the connections.
For, me this understanding of cyclical beings leaving and returning in whatever form allows me to be able to connect with those who believe in Jesus the Christ without conflict, it allows me to enjoy the connection with those that believe in Sekmet or Star Woman since all these beings are from the same source and are the same energy nothing is lost. Unfortunately, the conflict for others occurs when the Western dichotomy, the thought of seperation, of us being seperate, of better and worse, Up and down, joy and pain, good God and bad God, presented as seperate and opposite entities comes havoc. When we see Satan as a creation of God, when we see Jesus as a brother of Satan then I think we come to a full understanding of the concept of God.
With that said, we should always have these discussions since they are really not seperate from our intellectual/political/economic/race disucssions. Our spiritual beliefs or non-beliefs, affects our intellectual/political/economic/race view points.
“The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear”
Krishnamurti
So allow me to express some of my fearful beliefs, feelings, thoughts around this issue.
First, I apologize to anyone who feels that my posts/comments were personal attacks. I consider them critiques on the way in which we, as human beings, don’t think deeply enough/don’t feel deeply enough how our adoption of ideologies – religious, or political – limit us as individuals and as humans.
Do I believe in God, the God of Jesus or Mohammed? No. I feel, based on experiences that I have had, that there is something, SOMETHING, that animates us and the world we live in. I don’t know what that “thing” is and don’t need to. I know that it is not Me. That said, feeling it, opening myself to that feeling is very important to me.
It is not necessary to assert that my way of thinking on the subject is THE way.
I don’t spend time bowing down to this beautiful feeling, but rather, try to open my eyes to it, seeing, feeling, tasting, experiencing it.
I don’t feel I can TRULY be open to IT, while holding onto dogma, so-called sacred literature, etc.
I believe that fear does plays a large part in the adoption of ideologies, religious or otherwise and I know this from personal experience. I have adopted various political, spiritual belief systems and I died as soon as I did. It is a subtle form of murder, but it is murder just the same.
Typically these lifelines are adopted in crisis, in desperation, but not always. Often, people are looking for something that arrests their fear of the ambiguity of life. So they latch onto something that does the work of explaining and contextualizing their life’s problems, concerns, fears and uncertainties. Et voila, they have THE answer.
As most of you know, the contradictions in the behavior of these spiritual giants and the words they sing praise to is often wide as the Red Sea. And as Anna Renee points out, this is when people make reference to the wars and the bloodlettings done in the name of the Church, the Bible, the Koran. The fact is, these events are historical facts and can’t be divorced from the Church’s track record.
Likewise, those of us who live in the Democracy called the United States must contend with the track record of overthrows, assassinations, subversion and all manner of skulduggery perpetrated by this land that bills itself as free and great and all the rest.
So, maybe religion has not colonized your minds here on the AfroSpear; but there is a whole world of people who cannot admit the overwhelmingly deleterious affects that religion, or ideology has on the people. It has been an opiate and an ignition switch for too many dead people.
For all the churches that we have here in the US, where are the ones truly concerned with the “spirit?” How can they sit idly by as our country murders directly or by neglect – not just little black boys and girls here – but Iraqis and Afghans and Haitians and South African, etc, etc??
If Christianity and it adherents really stand for something powerful and special and good, why aren’t they doing as Dr. Martin Luther King did, getting in the streets, organizing believers and non- and attempting to eliminate all of the ungodly behavior going on in their communities and in their nation? It doesn’t seem that that’s what this religion thing is about…and if its not about what’s moral, what’s evil and what’s right, what good is it??
Again, Krishnamurti:
“The man who is following a path can never know truth
Truth is not something in the distance; there is no path to it, there is neither your path nor my path; there is no devotional path, there is no path of knowledge or path of action, because truth has no path to it. The moment you have a path to truth, you divide it, because the path is exclusive; and what is exclusive at the very beginning will end in exclusiveness. The man who is following a path can never know truth because he is living in exclusiveness; his means are exclusive, and the means are the end, are not separate from the end. If the means are exclusive, the end is also exclusive. So there is no path to truth, and there are not two truths. Truth is not of the past or the present, it is timeless; the man who quotes the truth of the Buddha, of Shankara, of Christ, or who merely repeats what I am saying, will not find truth, because repetition is not truth. Repetition is a lie.”
That is Peace MaxJulian for real. That in which you speak is the essence of it all.
If Christianity and it adherents really stand for something powerful and special and good, why aren’t they doing as Dr. Martin Luther King did, getting in the streets, organizing believers and non- and attempting to eliminate all of the ungodly behavior going on in their communities and in their nation? It doesn’t seem that that’s what this religion thing is about…and if its not about what’s moral, what’s evil and what’s right, what good is it??
My son lamented the fact, that where there were a stop-n-go (local establishment that sell cheap fortified beers), open drug dealing and a Blue Light district( high crime areas that have cameras with flashing blue lights)there were at least one store front church in the block.
There are few people that think that cleaning up their neighborhood from crime is worth their life.